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"Man is born free; and everywhere he is in chains."  SenorSin  31 May 07 1:06AM Post Reply

-Jean Jacques Rousseau

Yes? No? Discuss?

re:  trochee  31 May 07 1:08AM Post Reply

Is there anything to discuss?

Mr. Rousseau has very well summed it up.

re:  varun  31 May 07 2:06AM Post Reply

i don't agree with rousseau, for the first part.

nothing is free.
consider the concept of free -
free - to do, to be
freedom - to choose, to live

there are too many factors that guide decisions and making of anything and at any level, at any point in time.

it can be argued that the decision making powers of 'man' are instilled by parenthood - another name for the social contract; for the ability to logically survive in a 'society'.
if these 'social values' are not instilled, then only one thing remains, the instinct for survival.
so, i suppose it can be said that the logical thinking that we train our human minds to do, is itself the chain? and therefore, simultaneous with the instinct to survive, we learn/are taught to use logic. which means, as soon as we can think, we are in chains.

[which is why, i suppose, that drugs are so popular, they 'think' for us. even though it is our brain they use to think. but, hey, eh? we do use very very little of our brains]

i do however agree with rousseau, for the second part.

everything is always drowned/drowning in something.

re: re:  mr_e  31 May 07 10:42AM Post Reply

Man is born screaming and completely helpless by himself...kind of like wambles

re: re:  unknown  31 May 07 11:43AM Post Reply

definitions result from boundaries.

freedom is not free.



please hold the applause

st3ntorian

re: re:  unknown  31 May 07 5:39PM Post Reply

> i don't agree with rousseau, for the first part.
>
> nothing is free.
> consider the concept of free -
> free - to do, to be
> freedom - to choose, to live
>
> there are too many factors that guide decisions and making of anything
> and at any level, at any point in time.
>
> it can be argued that the decision making powers of 'man' are
> instilled by parenthood - another name for the social contract; for
> the ability to logically survive in a 'society'.
> if these 'social values' are not instilled, then only one thing
> remains, the instinct for survival.
> so, i suppose it can be said that the logical thinking that we train
> our human minds to do, is itself the chain? and therefore,
> simultaneous with the instinct to survive, we learn/are taught to use
> logic. which means, as soon as we can think, we are in chains.
>
> [which is why, i suppose, that drugs are so popular, they 'think'
> for us. even though it is our brain they use to think. but, hey, eh?
> we do use very very little of our brains]
>
> i do however agree with rousseau, for the second part.
>
> everything is always drowned/drowning in something.


It's difficult not to agree with varun
but everything can't always be drowning/drowned, there must be periods of 'progress'
I mean if we are standing on a precipice then we must have done some climbing to be up so high

re: re:  SenorSin  31 May 07 9:50PM Post Reply

I always thought the "born free" part was supposed to be ironic, to heighten the intensity of the second statement. And if you read more of Rousseau, he goes on to explain that freedom is just a illusion we operate under to cover up the fact that we are never free.
So than I ask, why put the "born free" part? It just creates a paradox out of the whole statement.
Which I rather like.

> [which is why, i suppose, that drugs are so popular, they 'think'
> for us. even though it is our brain they use to think. but, hey, eh?
> we do use very very little of our brains]

I also do not agree with that, or perhaps I am just taking it too literally. They release our inhibitions, things that we would do if the "social values" or the "parenthood indoctrinating" were not instilled in us, but I do not think they think for us, just allow us to act on those thoughts.
However I am naive, for alcohol is my one and only drug at the moment.

re: re:  unknown  31 May 07 9:57PM Post Reply

lost my penis what do I do

re:  Isabelle5  1 Jun 07 11:29AM Post Reply

We are born in chains;  limited by a body and a certain amount of intelligence, coming to the realization that we are all going to die, usually at a moment not of our own choosing.

We have a certain amount of free will but everything limits us - society, family, talents - we can learn to rise a bit above all these things but in the end, we are still doomed, physically.

Spiritually - well, save that for another thread.

Imc

re: re:  unknown  1 Jun 07 11:43AM Post Reply

we need to believe we are free

needs trump truths




thank you


smugy st3ntorian

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