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re: Let's understand the problem with belief.  mikebauer  24 Jan 07 3:05PM Post Reply

both of us, well, maybe, understand the concept: is poetry a hobby written by "good people", or is poetry a truth written by people who redeem their goodness through writing? is the content of the poem "truth", or is it the well crafted creation of truth that causes the reader to be more verbal and creative after they've read it. why do you see this on such a superficial level? we're not office co-workers, making too much noise for the CPA's.

-- enraged by george, or inspired by words?

> both of you seem to struggle with tolerance.

re: Let's understand the problem with belief.  Isabelle5  24 Jan 07 3:15PM Post Reply

Why do you want to quanitify what poetry is?  People, all kinds of people, write poetry.  Some write well, some don't know how to put two thoughts together to make a coherent piece.  It's not that complicated, Mike.  Some people can make stick figures and some paint the Sistine Chapel ceiling, they can all call themselves painters if they want to but some are going to be told they don't paint well.

Why do YOU need to see this on such a deep level?  It's poetry, not brain surgery, no one is going to die from poetry.  It doesn't have to have a label, it just is what it is.  

Simplify, my friend.  Make your life easier.  

About that redeeming their goodness through writing?  Name one person EVER who could redeem anything by writing, especially goodness.  Why would goodness need to be redeemed anyway?  

There is only one person's truth in poetry, that of the writer.  Everyone who reads it can try to understand and if many do, I consider that a success.  But it's the voice of one, one poet's truth.

re: Let's understand the problem with belief.  unknown  24 Jan 07 3:31PM Post Reply

you are each worse than an office worker, you wear your uniforms 24/7. i pity your lack of insight.

re: Let's understand the problem with belief.  mikebauer  24 Jan 07 3:32PM Post Reply

because i write it and i know how it's written, and i've been involved with it for 57 years. now, that's a problem, because anyone would want to say that all i'm doing is conveying my prior poetry experience to now time, and wanting only translations into "mike" poetry. someone might say that. in fact, we'd all say that about ourselves, and work to read objectively. happily, i'm a fan of poetry, and can learn new modes, like to hear new things. some verse sounds like the poet is trying to impress... there's not much there except show-off. "show-off is difficult, because we're poets, and we all want to actualize ourselves through our poems. some verse works as comedy club: one liners with mood music. other verse says big things and philosophy. talky poems, dependent on the poet's word talent to keep us reading... unless we only want to read what we already know: secure thoughts in a blanket: "x is bad, where is meaning? why can't i be a fireman?" -- nice things, for nice people. nice people hang out here too. that's nice.

other poems are word sculptures, forcing the poet out into a three dimensional world that the poet feels he can't live in in any other way -- be, without this pressure capsule space suit of word truth, hermetically FORMED, and suitable to this world as a counter world, another atmosphere. entering our consiousness, our atmosphere, paper origami poems have to be well constructed not to burn up in our super-heated atmosphere. the real poems, by real poets, no matter what the subject matter, fly into my mind like hawks and butterflys. i want this, and ask for it, from a poem. but, i'm happy to leave the "mommy, look what i made... no, it's not a flower, it's a fireman!!" poetry alone, as long as the little darling hallmarkers who write these kinds of thing leave me and other poets to do what we must do to make our poetry look the way it must look.

little darling hallmarkers...

> Why do you want to quanitify what poetry is?  People, all kinds of
> people, write poetry.  Some write well, some don't know how to put
> two thoughts together to make a coherent piece.  It's not that
> complicated, Mike.  Some people can make stick figures and some paint
> the Sistine Chapel ceiling, they can all call themselves painters if
> they want to but some are going to be told they don't paint well.
>
> Why do YOU need to see this on such a deep level?  It's poetry, not
> brain surgery, no one is going to die from poetry.  It doesn't have
> to have a label, it just is what it is.  
>
> Simplify, my friend.  Make your life easier.  
>
> About that redeeming their goodness through writing?  Name one person
> EVER who could redeem anything by writing, especially goodness.  Why
> would goodness need to be redeemed anyway?  
>
> There is only one person's truth in poetry, that of the writer.
> Everyone who reads it can try to understand and if many do, I consider
> that a success.  But it's the voice of one, one poet's truth.

re: Let's understand the problem with belief.  Isabelle5  24 Jan 07 3:39PM Post Reply

So you're sort of a poetry snob, is that what it is?  I don't think a site like PC is a place to separate the "hallmarkers" from those who think they are better writers.

We have published writers here besides you and I appreciate that they work very hard to help the rest of us and don't lord it over our heads.  

I hope you do not read my own poems, as they come from a woman's heart and life, something I cannot imagine you bowing low enough to try to understand nor empathize with.  You are not my reader, thank the Lord.

re: Let's understand the problem with belief.  mikebauer  24 Jan 07 3:50PM Post Reply

who, snob, are you to say what P.C. is or isn't? especially since it's a site for poets and not mayflower descendents correcting our grammar.

woman's heart... wow. like we don't know H.D. or Plath or Dorothy Parker, women who blasted their way into poetry because they need to.

if you feel i'm lording it over you, build your poems higher, so that i can look up to you.

> So you're sort of a poetry snob, is that what it is?  I don't think
> a site like PC is a place to separate the "hallmarkers" from those
> who think they are better writers.
>
> We have published writers here besides you and I appreciate that they
> work very hard to help the rest of us and don't lord it over our
> heads.  
>
> I hope you do not read my own poems, as they come from a woman's
> heart and life, something I cannot imagine you bowing low enough to
> try to understand nor empathize with.  You are not my reader, thank
> the Lord.

re: Let's understand the problem with belief.  Isabelle5  24 Jan 07 4:05PM Post Reply

I've never been a snob but you can't know that from this black and white page.  This site was here long before I arrived and I learned from the community of poets already here.  I am a guest here, as are we all.  I think I've forgotten that the past couple of days, sorry.

I guess I don't want to blast my way into poetry, for any reason.  My poetry is simple and quiet, told as beautifully as I am able.  If it touches a heart, makes someone laugh or otherwise reaches even one reader, my work has been done.

I am not pretentious, neither is my writing.  But it is MY writing and what I have left here, I am as proud of as you are of yours.  That's what poetry needs to be about, not applause.

This site is not for glorification, it's a place to work hard and perfect each voice so that it stands out authentically and beautifully.  If I notice an error, I believe it's a compliment to this site to point it out, rather than merely saying

re: Let's understand the problem with belief.  mikebauer  24 Jan 07 4:10PM Post Reply

yes, ECM, but, remember that all i asked of you was to approach poetry you can't read in five seconds, with curiosity, and kindly ask the poet why she wanted to break a word down the page, or use small case, or strange spellings. reading a poem is part of the meaning of the poem. you just scan and damn.

> I've never been a snob but you can't know that from this black and
> white page.  This site was here long before I arrived and I learned
> from the community of poets already here.  I am a guest here, as are
> we all.  I think I've forgotten that the past couple of days, sorry.
>
> I guess I don't want to blast my way into poetry, for any reason.  My
> poetry is simple and quiet, told as beautifully as I am able.  If it
> touches a heart, makes someone laugh or otherwise reaches even one
> reader, my work has been done.
>
> I am not pretentious, neither is my writing.  But it is MY writing and
> what I have left here, I am as proud of as you are of yours.  That's
> what poetry needs to be about, not applause.
>
> This site is not for glorification, it's a place to work hard and
> perfect each voice so that it stands out authentically and
> beautifully.  If I notice an error, I believe it's a compliment to
> this site to point it out, rather than merely saying

re: Let's understand the problem with belief.  Isabelle5  24 Jan 07 4:27PM Post Reply

What you ask me to do is exactly what I do, what am I missing?  I ask questions on poems all the time!  I am always hopeful that what I read will be fresh and interesting.  I don't have all day to read.  It's kind of like speed-dating some days (which is something I would personally NEVER DO!)  

Imc

re: Let's understand the problem with belief.  Mor  24 Jan 07 4:36PM Post Reply


Sie hatten sich beide so herzlich lieb
Spitzbubin war, er war ein Dieb“.

Mor.

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