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re: Christianity is but the vanity of man.  GreenEggsHam  3 Feb 07 9:53PM Post Reply

Well said, Henry!

Without God to tell us how to think and act, we wouldn't know how to be good or behave as moral people.  There's no way that "cooperation in society" or "human kindness" or "charity" would exist without God telling us to do them.  I know some people would say that such things are actually adaptive responses to living in societies, where helping others encourages others to help us, and being kind to others encourages others to be kind to us; but that ascribes goodness to humans.  We all know that humans are basically evil and sinful by nature.

It's a good thing God put that Tree in the garden, or humans would be amoral monsters like atheists!  

re: Christianity is but the vanity of man.  GreenEggsHam  3 Feb 07 10:03PM Post Reply

I'm sorry, unknown, but you appear to be a bit confused about good and evil and war and God.

Christ does not prevent wars.  In fact, He inspires them!  He demands them!

Take the Crusades for instance.  Hundreds of thousands slaughtered in Christ's name!  And the American witch trials, the multiple Inquisitions, etc.!

Heard of the Cold War?  The entire basis for war against Communism by Americans is because Communists are officially atheists!  (Why did you think they're called "Godless Commies"?)

God creates everything, including evil.  He says so Himself, repeatedly.  Do you deny God's Word?

Oh, you may say, Satan does that.  OK, let's skip the parts of the Bible where God Himself says that He creates evil, and assume that it's all Satan's doing.

Who created Satan?  Or, should I say, what omniscient being (that is, one who knows ALL past, present, and future outcomes) created Satan as Lucifer, his bestest angel buddy, knowing full well that Lucifer would lead a revolt against Him, spend thousands of years sowing discord amongst humans, and then be thrown into eternal torment along with all the humans that he'd deceived?  (Bearing in mind that God also knew that Satan would confuse all those souls through deception and lead them into eternal torment as well!)

No, I'd say that evil comes from God, since all things are of God.  Have you been reading the NIV or something?  I understand they cut out a lot of information about God, and that whole Jesus being the Son of God thing.

re: Christianity is but the vanity of man.  unknown  3 Feb 07 11:49PM Post Reply

"""Here's what is ugly as well...people who hide behind unknown to tell people what they think. If you believe so strongly in this, come out and let us know who you are. If you're cowardly, you can make up a new username and say hurtful things under that name, or you could always use your regular user name. So, yes...Christians are not always great. That's a given. And either are all religious officials. That doesn't mean they're all bad. I'd rather have the religion of Christianity that is normally good and does some bad, than to have no religion at all. And not all Christian religions promote that kind of hate...now talk about "ugly." Ignorance. I'm a united Methodist and no where in the church do we promote such hatred. Most Christian religions don't promote that at all. We do promote love for all people, to help those in need, and we also promote acceptance of others. I may seem like a jerk on the website, but I'm not really like that at all. My boss is a homosexual, one of my sister is an African-American and my doctor is Jewish...none of that bothers me at all. Now please stop being ignorant yourself. The Christian religion has done some bad, some things I'd never brag about, but we also promote important, loving values."""



First off Henry, nobody is "hiding" from anything...
Some of us, atleast me, simply don't care enough about this to actually sign up to a forum I never posted more than 2 things on, all on the same subject, all in this very thread..
I don't even write poetry for pete's sake! :)
But of course, you're not saying this to actually make a point, it's only an attempt at silencing anyone with a different opinon.
Stick to debate, and if you can't handle it, don't speak at all:
Let your words speak for you, and not your username, or real name either..
Are the words different because you have a name to put to them?
Hardly.


Now.. You may say you have morals and that you are not like that. Fine.
But that's not because of any Christian morals, that's because of your own morals.
The base of christianity is and will always be the bible, the bible has not changed in several hundred years.
It promotes what it promotes; and that is mainly hatred, and it will keep on promoting hatred.

What has changed are you "Christians"; no longer do many of you even care about what your bible says since you have recreated the god you claim to worship using only small parts of the bible, your own fantasies, opinons, and your own morals.
I do not call you a hatemonger nor a bad person, I'm saying the very base of your religion: the bible, promotes hate.

If your religion has started to promote "loving values" then that is because you have abandoned your former values; those that are to be found in the bible.
However, you can't really be a christian in any terms that relates to christ if you actually reject a good part of his teachings, which can ONLY be found in the bible:
Not in your own imagination.

It is like being a muslim and eating pork, if one eats pork, one can't really call himself a muslim.
If one rejects much of the teachings of Jesus CHRIST, one can't really call himself a CHRISTian.

re: Christianity is but the vanity of man.  unknown  4 Feb 07 3:07AM Post Reply

> I'm sorry, unknown, but you appear to be a bit confused about good
> and evil and war and God.

God created everything good, it just happens that because He loved, he also gave angels and humans the same attributes as Himself, freewill. He told us what would happen if we veered from being Holy, but we would not listen. Angels and Humans brought evil upon ourselves, God allowed it because if He had not then we would not be truly free. He cannot permit evil within His universe to continue because He is Holy. He created the universe and the world in six days and the seventh He rested. A few more days have gone by in His timeframe, He will only put up with the evil for a few more hours, or maybe a day, the way the Almighty Eternal God lives outside of the time and space He created. God will destroy evil and save as many as He can, the only reason he has waited anytime at all is because He loves us. We are much more important than any of us fathom, but I don't think it will be clear until the end, or the new beginning.

re: Christianity is but the vanity of man.  netskyIam  4 Feb 07 4:05AM Post Reply

Hello unknown poster of  3:07AM,

> God created everything good,

Did he create anything that's bad?

>it just happens that because He loved, he...

Quoting from The SAB, just a bit of the short list on this matter,
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/short.html
---
Genesis

1  And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. -- 38:7

2  And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. -- 38:10
---
There's not much "love" found in the OT, is there?  God killed that infant.


> ...also gave angels and humans the same attributes as Himself, freewill.

Disagreeing here.  
Do humans have "free will"?  Read the relevant quotes please?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/free.html

(snipped most of your text.

>He loves us. We are much more important than any of us fathom, but I don't think it >will be clear until the end, or the new beginning.
Hmmm...

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1jn/2.html

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

Non-Christians are liars and antichrists.
(There are about four billion antichrists now living.)"

"He loves us" but... He also has said that those who do not embrace Christ are doomed to destruction.  So your god is coming soon to earth to cleanse by killing more than half the world's popluation.    This is not a loving god, imo.

I know you mean well.  My reply here was faulty and incomplete.
I don't agree--I can't swallow your sanitized and artificially sweetened views.

Best wishes for you anyway.

re: Christianity is but the vanity of man.  unknown  4 Feb 07 6:54AM Post Reply

Hello netsky,

>Did he create anything that's bad?

No, he didn't create anything that is bad. We did that, with a little help from Satan and the fallen angels, on our own. Think of the story of Adam and Eve, Adam lived to be I believe over 600 years old, I'm not going to look it up because I would probably quote it, and I have been banned from quoting the bible here. Anyway he lived so long because he was suppose to live forever! He made a decision to go against God. God told Adam and Eve in advance that if they sinned they would die. We die because our ancestors sinned. We are born into a death sentence. I don't claim to understand the whole thing, but I suppose that sinners cannot raise sinless children. It somehow is not only the mind, but the body and soul are also tainted.

> There's not much "love" found in the OT, is there?  God killed that
> infant.

I would have mentioned when God had a mist go throughout Egypt and kill all the firstborns that did not have lambs blood on the doors. Now there is mass killing of children that should upset you. Read the book of Job, God has a reason for everything He does, but don't presume to know all of the whys of what He does, it is to make things right, that much I do know. My above example can now be seen to all who will read and understand the Bible. The lambs blood signified the coming of the Savior Jesus Christ, that when God saw the blood of the lamb, His son at the door posts He would not execute his judgment on those who bathed themselves in the blood of Christ. He sees the perfect Christ, not us. Those that do not have the blood on their doorsteps, their hearts, will die a second death. This is as is all the stories in the Bible truths that should help mankind throughout the ages. We don't know what happened to those children, you assume death is unkind. There is no death, we can never be unmade.

> ...also gave angels and humans the same attributes as Himself,
> freewill.

> Disagreeing here.  
> Do humans have "free will"?  Read the relevant quotes please?

Yes we do have the ability to make choices. The Old Testment was meant to show mankind the need for a savior, someone who could be born not of Adam, but of God, who could live a Godly life without the tainted blood. Christ was victorious and every sin that is committed by every sinner he takes upon himself the burden of those sins. A great love to die for all of mankind so that we might live again and be reborn to a new world where we are all Adam and Eves before the fall. I choose to break the speed limit or not, I choose to sin, or not.

>He loves us. We are much more important than any of us fathom, but I
> don't think it >will be clear until the end, or the new beginning.
> Hmmm...

I'm not going to go to your skeptics site, I was once a skeptic too.

> "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is
> antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."
> Non-Christians are liars and antichrists.
> (There are about four billion antichrists now living.)"

Only God knows the hearts of men and women. What of numbers? Do you believe that it cannot be true that 4, 5, even 6 billion people are headed for hell? It is not a democracy. If there are 60 students in a classroom and 59 of them agree that the Moon is made of green cheese, and the one says it is made of elements similar to Earth, who then is right? Wrong is wrong no matter what the numbers are, leave that to God to judge those that He will judge. In the end times most people will rise up against Israel, against God's people, those wouldn't be Christians doing so, so most of the world will be non-Christians and low, you quote 4 billion antichrists, go figure.

> "He loves us" but... He also has said that those who do not embrace
> Christ are doomed to destruction.  So your god is coming soon to earth
> to cleanse by killing more than half the world's popluation.    This
> is not a loving god, imo.

He wants everyone to be on His side. Why are you against him Reid? He sent his prophets to save them, he sent Christ, and the apostles. These last two thousand years he has left the church and the Holy Spirit to move within peoples hearts. He has given us preachers of renown that have travelled the world such as Billy Graham, the first to come to mind, and many others. Without every town in America, and many other places throughout the world are preachers, men and women striving to bring people to knowing Christ. Do you think I like spending my time writing this? I am compelled to do so because the Holy Spirit wishes it. I know you don't believe it, but it is true. I think that I have better things to do with my time, but then God's purposes for my life are not my selfish purposes. It could be that my whole life was meant for this day and hour, to write these words (I doubt it, but who knows for sure). God gave His only son so that we may live. Can you imagine doing that? There will be a judgment day and then will will see within each persons hearts and we will know that God is just. Who knows, I am hoping that all mankind will be saved in the end, but the son of perdition. God is a mighty God and I would not presume to question his methods or motives.

> I know you mean well.  My reply here was faulty and incomplete.
> I don't agree--I can't swallow your sanitized and artificially
> sweetened views.

"Sanitized and artificially sweetened views" I can't agree with this statement at all. I don't believe there is anything I have said to get a reply like this. Christ tells it like it is, there is nothing sweet about death and hell.

> Best wishes for you anyway.

I have said some awful things here over the years, I publicly repent of those now. Forgive me. I do not have a good testimony, I have not lived life as I should. If I have offended you netsky I am sorrow for that. If I have offended anyone else I am sorry. Life is short, make the best of it.

'Steven

re: Christianity is but the vanity of man.  netskyIam  4 Feb 07 7:33AM Post Reply

>Hello netsky,

>>Did he create anything that's bad?

>No, he didn't create anything that is bad. We did that, with a little help from Satan and the fallen angels, on our own.

Steven, I'll ask about only your first assertion.
If god created everything on heaven and earth, and nothing bad, then,
who/what created tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, lightning, wildfires, etc.   He created then, smallpox, dysentery, malaria, rickets, cancer, boils, mites, allergens, volcanoes, carbuncles, hangnails and ptomaine, tuberculosis, and so on and on and on?

?
Did we create any or all of these quite-bad things I've listed?  
Or is that satan's work?  If the latter, please cite scriptural references for any of these plagues.

Oh yes--plague.  I forgot bubonic plague.  It was once a serious problem.  Smallpox too.  Works of man, god or satan?

re: Christianity is but the vanity of man.  unknown  4 Feb 07 9:32AM Post Reply

When a lion eats an antelope is that bad or a human a chicken? it's part of nature - netsky surley you aren't questioning the whole of nature? creation at the hand of God does not preclude the natural order.

As an aside, was not universally agreed last week by the worlds premier scientists that we, humans, are actually responsible for the imablances in nature we see becoming more prvelent in recent times.

re: Christianity is but the vanity of man.  unknown  4 Feb 07 9:53AM Post Reply

Netsky is a dick. Mikebauer is an asshole.

re: Christianity is but the vanity of man.  Henry  4 Feb 07 10:10AM Post Reply

I do not think that the Bible is the word of God. It was said that his voice would knock us over, and no one in the Old testament made mention that he or she was knocked over when he/she heard God's voice. There may be some who think it, but I am surely not one of them. Just because a book says it's the truth, doesn't mean it is. I had a Logic college book that said "this is the square of opposition" but this "square" was actually a rectangle. And this was a college textbook I might add. So just because the book says it's the word of God, is hardly proof that it is the word of God. I don't believe most of the Bible actually happened. The stories could be partial truths, or exaggerations, or just anecdotes to help us see a greater truth...so NetSkyIAm...I really don't pick and choose what to believe persay...because the Old testament is more so the Torah which is for the Jewish religion. And the New Testament is for the Christian sects. This is the only part of the Bible I go by. All of what Jesus said was good and wonderful. At this time you will probably go to google and search for something negative that he said, and you may come up with something, but I surely doubt it. There is some talk that Jesus was a racist, because of a particular verse--but it is based upon interpretation. When I read it, I didn't see any racisim at all. And either do a number of skeptics that read the verse. I look up to Jesus because he was a great and beautiful being. I don't look up to David (who killed Goliath) I don't look up to Adam (from the story of Adam and Eve) or even to King Solomon...I look up to Jesus. Jesus is whom I follow...not the Bible. So...I guess if I really do pick and choose what to believe, I choose to believe Jesus and the stories he had to tell, and not the other parts of the Bible not concerning Jesus.

About only Christians being moral...of course that isn't true. Other's can be moral as well, even without a religion, but as many religions do, they like to promote their values...and some Christain values that are now spread are; love your neighbors, be charitable, and do not judge. I slip up of course...we all do. I think any religion that promotes such values, is doing the right thing. Trust me...I think all religions are great. When on a vacation, if I can't find a church nearby, I go to a synagogue so I don't miss a service. We're all worshipping the same guy...God...I just believe his son was a great role model and our savior. What others believe is up to then...because I admit...it is a farfetched story it would seem. But I believe it because of faith, and it hasn't made my life any worse, only better, for believing it. I realize this is an argument that believers can't win, but this is okay.

And I think I would put more stock in someone posting with a username, than someone who didn't. You sure typed a long enough response, which I'm sure took a bit of time to type...it wouldn't have taken much longer to sign-in.

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