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re: The Bible and Homosexuality  unknown  19 Jan 07 1:16AM Post Reply

Might I pose a question?

As I understand, the Bible teaches that we are born sinless, but we are born into a world of sin. That a person can only be deemed a sinner if s/he sets against the rules of Christianity after they have reached the age of reason (7 years old). We all know the sexual exploration of children who have not yet passed 7 years, great minds have studied it, but what then if a person reaches adulthood, well beyond 7 years, say 30, but has not been able to mature mentally to the same age. S/he may well have homosexual tendencies that we dismiss in infants - would s/he then be subject to the sins and consequences of an adult?

re: The Bible and Homosexuality  unknown  19 Jan 07 1:37AM Post Reply

> Ultimately, the very beginning words of the bible should rule out the
> possibility that God does not like homosexuals or sees it as a sin. In
> the beginning it says, and I am paraphrasing, "God created everything
> in his image: and everything in his image was seen as good."
>
> --- everything was good until sin entered the world- and the bible
> labels homosexuality as a sin.

Did you read anything I wrote?

Let's just put aside for a moment that the Bible marks homosexuality as sin. I think we all understand that by now. But ask yourself WHY the Bible labels homosexuality.

I have offered you one possible theory, which isn't just by own creation, but which is backed up by credited historians and theologians alike.

The Bible, like any writing, is the reflection of the people[s] who wrote it. Since I feel you completely overlooked mmy own writing, let me briefly reitirate: Jews of Ancient Lore did not take well to the Roman and you wouldn't either if they took away your home, then gave it back but only after you promised that you taxed them. So, it is a natural impulse to want to shy away from that hated culture. Homosexuality was a common reality of Greco-Roman life. So Jews and forming Jewish Christians rebelled against that, saying themselves it is a sin.

Later we call these writers inspired by God, but were they really? Or were they, essentially, only inspired by the times and their world?

Tell me, julia, when you read John's revelation, do you take each word of that literally?


Anonymous Still

re: The Bible and Homosexuality  unknown  19 Jan 07 4:42AM Post Reply

Dear Anonymous Still

Nightengale didn't read our posts, she scanned them.  I know that because I noticed the speed of her reply - very few people can read that much that fast, and especially, take it in.

I think for some, there is a very real freedom in the literal translation of James' version, or the 'New and Living' version, or whosoever version is funky for whichever sect, because the decisions are already made.  Step 1: Don't kill.  Step 2: Don't covet, and so on.  All good, and soooo damn easy.

What about waking up and realizing one's own version of love is insane and justifies discrimination and hate and killing?  What about waking up one day and realizing one is idiot - narcissistic, selfish, shameful and ungrateful, and responsible for the whole lot.  Interesting thing is that this behavior doesn't appear to end with the individual, but extend to political parties, religion and Government, amongst others.  An insane society, but there is always chaos prior to evolution.

Just some thoughts..

re: The Bible and Homosexuality  unknown  19 Jan 07 7:37AM Post Reply

> Might I pose a question?
>
> As I understand, the Bible teaches that we are born sinless, but we
> are born into a world of sin. That a person can only be deemed a
> sinner if s/he sets against the rules of Christianity after they have
> reached the age of reason (7 years old). We all know the sexual
> exploration of children who have not yet passed 7 years, great minds
> have studied it, but what then if a person reaches adulthood, well
> beyond 7 years, say 30, but has not been able to mature mentally to
> the same age. S/he may well have homosexual tendencies that we dismiss
> in infants - would s/he then be subject to the sins and consequences
> of an adult?

The bible states throughout that we are born INTO sin. We are not born sinless. There are no rules in the bible about "age of reason" or "7 years old".

Romans 3:23-24  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Homosexuality is just one more sin along with all the others. The real problem with this sin is sort of like the Godfather series of movies. If you are living your entire life against society, or against God, you are never going to fit in.

Acts 21:25  As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

If you are not a saved Jew, then you are a Gentile as in the above scripture. What is being said is that if you believe in Christ, if you have asked him to save you from your sins and to have faith in Him, then that is the important thing.

The good news!

Hebrews 13:5  Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Christ will never leave those who have trusted in Him. Never! The apostles grappled with this but it is a fact. Whole books have been written about what happens when a person goes back to sinning after being saved. Christ is working on that person is the real answer. We still live in a sin ridden world, it will still be impossible to leave a rightous life, although we may desire it.

Homosexuality keeps people within the same sins, like being in the Mafia it is difficult to even try to lead a Christian life. They should try to get out of it if they can. There is nothing wrong with abstaining from sex, Paul did it and yet Paul said he was the greatest of all sinners, he said this in the present tense, not past tense.

Day

re: The Bible and Homosexuality  unknown  19 Jan 07 8:03AM Post Reply

that's merely one religion's point of view. maybe all we can trust is that we will all be dealt with in life and death according to what we believe. following my reasoning, if you believe that you have been born into this world sinless you have been; if you believe homosexuality isn't a sin, then it isn't; if you believe sinners go to hell and you're a sinner, then to hell you will go, likewise for good deeds and heaven; and if you believe in nothing, then nothing will happen to you.

re: The Bible and Homosexuality  nightengale  19 Jan 07 4:14PM Post Reply

> > Ultimately, the very beginning words of the bible should rule out
> the
> > possibility that God does not like homosexuals or sees it as a sin.
> In
> > the beginning it says, and I am paraphrasing, "God created
> everything
> > in his image: and everything in his image was seen as good."
> >
> > --- everything was good until sin entered the world- and the bible
> > labels homosexuality as a sin.
>
> Did you read anything I wrote?
>
> Let's just put aside for a moment that the Bible marks homosexuality
> as sin. I think we all understand that by now. But ask yourself WHY
> the Bible labels homosexuality.
>
> I have offered you one possible theory, which isn't just by own
> creation, but which is backed up by credited historians and
> theologians alike.
>
> The Bible, like any writing, is the reflection of the people[s] who
> wrote it. Since I feel you completely overlooked mmy own writing, let
> me briefly reitirate: Jews of Ancient Lore did not take well to the
> Roman and you wouldn't either if they took away your home, then gave
> it back but only after you promised that you taxed them. So, it is a
> natural impulse to want to shy away from that hated culture.
> Homosexuality was a common reality of Greco-Roman life. So Jews and
> forming Jewish Christians rebelled against that, saying themselves it
> is a sin.
>
> Later we call these writers inspired by God, but were they really? Or
> were they, essentially, only inspired by the times and their world?
>
> Tell me, julia, when you read John's revelation, do you take each
> word of that literally?
>
>
> Anonymous Still

Before there were even Romans or Greeks, God said homosexuality was a sin- in the old testament. I gave examples before in past posts on this thread if you want to take a look.

What's your point about John's revelation?

re: The Bible and Homosexuality  nightengale  19 Jan 07 4:15PM Post Reply

> > Might I pose a question?
> >
> > As I understand, the Bible teaches that we are born sinless, but we
> > are born into a world of sin. That a person can only be deemed a
> > sinner if s/he sets against the rules of Christianity after they
> have
> > reached the age of reason (7 years old). We all know the sexual
> > exploration of children who have not yet passed 7 years, great minds
> > have studied it, but what then if a person reaches adulthood, well
> > beyond 7 years, say 30, but has not been able to mature mentally to
> > the same age. S/he may well have homosexual tendencies that we
> dismiss
> > in infants - would s/he then be subject to the sins and consequences
> > of an adult?
>
> The bible states throughout that we are born INTO sin. We are not born
> sinless. There are no rules in the bible about "age of reason" or
> "7 years old".
>
> Romans 3:23-24  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of
> God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that
> is in Christ Jesus:
>
> Homosexuality is just one more sin along with all the others. The real
> problem with this sin is sort of like the Godfather series of movies.
> If you are living your entire life against society, or against God,
> you are never going to fit in.
>
> Acts 21:25  As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written
> and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they
> keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from
> strangled, and from fornication.
>
> If you are not a saved Jew, then you are a Gentile as in the above
> scripture. What is being said is that if you believe in Christ, if you
> have asked him to save you from your sins and to have faith in Him,
> then that is the important thing.
>
> The good news!
>
> Hebrews 13:5  Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be
> content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never
> leave thee, nor forsake thee.
>
> Christ will never leave those who have trusted in Him. Never! The
> apostles grappled with this but it is a fact. Whole books have been
> written about what happens when a person goes back to sinning after
> being saved. Christ is working on that person is the real answer. We
> still live in a sin ridden world, it will still be impossible to leave
> a rightous life, although we may desire it.
>
> Homosexuality keeps people within the same sins, like being in the
> Mafia it is difficult to even try to lead a Christian life. They
> should try to get out of it if they can. There is nothing wrong with
> abstaining from sex, Paul did it and yet Paul said he was the greatest
> of all sinners, he said this in the present tense, not past tense.
>
> Day


ya- agree with you.

re: The Bible and Homosexuality  Isabelle5  19 Jan 07 5:08PM Post Reply

I often think that humans spend too much time judging each other and blaming God for it.  It's between Him and the person who sins (which means all of us) so why do we spend so much time trying to figure out who is the worst and which sin will send someone to hell?  Outrageous, then you think about it.

Our task, if we are Christian, is to point people to God.   If we are Muslim, point people to God.  If you're Jewish, point people to God.

Once you say what you believe, it's up to that person and the Creator.

Of course we can look around and find things wrong but if we are honest, we need to spend time cleaning up our own souls and less time telling others how bad or wrong they are.

Isabelle

re: The Bible and Homosexuality  unknown  19 Jan 07 6:47PM Post Reply

>
> Before there were even Romans or Greeks, God said homosexuality was a
> sin- in the old testament. I gave examples before in past posts on
> this thread if you want to take a look.
>


Yes, you're right. But you're also aware that the Jewish people (from which the Old Testament derives from) have, thoughout most of their existence, been plagued or conquered by outsiders. If you don't want to take my view points on the Roman and Greeks to refer to the New Testament, let's refer to the Persians, Egyptians, Babylonians etc. of the Old Testament who, too, conquered Israel and one point and, too, pagan, dipped in homosexuality.

Now, rather that reiterating my point AGAIN, why not just reread it, replacing Romans and Greek for Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian (and there are more empires too). My message is still the same. HUMAN WRITERS rebelled against the practices of the people who oppressed them.

This isn't a new concept, in fact, that's the way America was made if you looked about it. The founding fathers rebelled against Britain and in their writings you can find a great degree of CHANGES that is directly opposite and even sometimes denounces English ways.

> What's your point about John's revelation?

My point is, you seem like a blind, fundamentalist biblical literalist. It SEEMS (and I'm only speculating) that you take every word of the Bible for literal, or at take every word some preacher has told you for literal, and haven't really cracked open the Bible itself, and the history books themselves, and take a CRTICAL look. As such, I would expect you to believe all that which Revelation prohetizes... about the flying beasts and trumpeters...

Anonymous Third

re: The Bible and Homosexuality  unknown  19 Jan 07 6:52PM Post Reply

They discovered that revelations wasn't even penned by the apostle, John.  The author was hundreds of years after Jesus' time, and the document was referring to the evils of Nero and the Roman Empire.

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